The great debate
do dogs need fruits & vegetables
Nothing is more confusing to raw feeders than the debate over fruits and vegetables in a dog’s diet.
The raw feeding community agrees on the exclusion of grains in a canine raw diet. But they’re divided when it comes to the use of plants. And this is where the raw feeding ideologies take different paths.
Do dogs need fruits and vegetables for optimal health?
Most commercial pet food companies and “BARF diet” raw feeders believe fruits and vegetables belong in a dog’s diet. But “Prey Model” feeders advocate as carnivores; dogs have no need for plant matter.
Let’s get to the bottom of this debate right now.
Me too
Are you sick of conflicting information about plants in a raw diet?
Once you know all the facts, you can make better decisions about which ingredients to include in your dog’s diet.
First, let’s tackle the age-old question.
Tests to determine if plants make your dog healthier
New research to consider
Viewpoints from both sides
Today you’ll learn:
The previous version no longer supported what I believe today.
What’s more, it left out important pieces out of the puzzle. Pieces you need to make an educated decision about fruits and veggies in your dog’s raw diet.
It was long overdue for an update.
Why This Post Has Changed
Because fruits and vegetables are the healthiest choice in the carbohydrate category, this leads dog owners to question:
“Do dogs need fruits and vegetables?”
It’s important we emphasize need. This has nothing to do with your dog’s preference for plants. Or, if feeding fruits and vegetables makes you feel better.
What we’re asking is:
• Do dogs need fruits and vegetables to survive?
• Are carbohydrates required for good canine health?
• Grains
• Legumes
• Starches
• Sugars
Fruits and vegetables are carbohydrates along with other foods like:
Do Dogs Need Fruits and Vegetables?
But can plants play a role in supplementation?
Many in the industry believe so. Today, information suggests plants can be a healthful addition to the modern dog’s diet.
Let me explain.
NOTE: See my book for a complete discussion on the classification of animals and whether dogs are carnivores or omnivores.
• In a 2006 committee on Animal Nutrition, the NRC confirmed dogs have no nutritional requirements for carbohydrates.
• In their 2010 Pet Food Nutrient Profiles, the AAFCO concluded carbohydrates are not essential to a healthy canine diet.
• Leading canine nutrition textbooks agree as well.
This makes sense. As facultative carnivores, dogs don’t have a physiological requirement for carbohydrates.
Both the National Research Council and the Association of American Feed Control Officials confirmed this.
The answer is NO.
This is a flexible approach to raw feeding with a focus on what works for domestic dogs today. While BARF is modeled off the wolf’s diet, BARF feeders choose to improve upon a raw diet by including:
• Plant material: fruits, vegetables, herbs
• Additional supplements
• And even dairy
BARF supporters feel a strict Prey Model approach limits the potential of a dog’s diet. What’s more, it doesn’t take into account the nutritional landscape of modern day.
Most raw feeding debates stem from these two opinions. So, let’s hear them.
The BARF Philosophy
This approach tries to mimic the wolf’s diet as close as possible. Prey Model feeders do not believe in:
• Heavy supplementation
• Plant matter (herbs, fruits, and vegetables)
• Dairy
• Or anything they feel is not species appropriate.
The Prey Model Philosophy
Ancestral nutrition is the premise of a raw diet.
It’s modeled after what your dog’s ancestors ate in the wild. Since your dog is a descendant of the wolf, raw diets are based on the natural diet of the wolf.
While this is the foundation of a raw diet, it splits into two opinionated groups of thought:
The Canine Ancestral Diet
• Fruits (like berries, apples, and pears)
• Grasses
• Herbs
• Other leafy vegetables
• Some nut and seeds
Some wolves eat plant matter, and some don’t, which has created an open debate on the topic. This plant material in question includes:
Here’s where it gets tricky:
• Muscle meat
• Edible bones
• Organs and offal
• Connective tissues
• Fat
• Skin, hide and fur
Through scientific study, we’re certain wolves are classified as carnivores and are hunters and scavengers.
Carnivores survive on other animals, consuming:
What Do Wolves Eat?
They cite renowned wolf researcher, David L. Mech.
In Mech’s Book “Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation,” he states:
“Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and … consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site.”
“To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system.”
BARF supporters claim the opposite:
Wolves choose to eat plant material to supplement their diet. Plants are scavenged from their natural environment. Or, they’re obtained through the predigested plants within their prey’s stomach.
There’s research to back up these claims as well.
In “The diet of feral carnivores: a review of stomach content analysis” both Landry and Van Ruining state:
“The staple diet of carnivores living in a natural setting includes other animals, carrion, and occasionally fruits and grasses."
And from Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior & Evolution by Coppinger R, Coppinger L, the following is said:
“Scraps of meat, bones, pieces of carcass, rotten greens and fruit, fish guts, discarded seed and grains, animals guts and head…”
In “What a wolf eats: research on wild candids can help inform dietary planning for dogs,” Puotinen can be found saying:
“Their preference is freshly killed meat, but when that’s not available, they’ll eat anything that could remotely be considered edible”
And now we circle back to David L Mech. In the same book quoted earlier, he says:
“Perhaps because of the greater availability of fruit, wolves in the southern portions of Eurasia may feed on plant material more extensively than those in North America…. Fruit may provide vitamins for wolves in the summer, as even in North America it is not uncommon to find seeds from raspberries….”
“It also feeds on all the other animals in its environment, scavenges, and can even eat fruits and berries”
“Because wolves may consume fruits such as berries, sweet taste receptors would be adaptive…”
Prey Model supporters claim plant-based foods are not natural food items. What’s more, they’re of no interest to wolves.
The Dispute Over Plant Based Foods in a Wolf’s Diet
• Is it food scarcity?
• Do plants settle an upset stomach?
• On an instinctual level, is the animal is seeking out extra nutrients?
If both sides were present, they’d bicker over the reasons for plant consumption. It’s not worth hearing out; we won’t ever know why wolves choose to add plant-based foods to their diet.
A single strict diet for all wolves does not exist.
• Environment
• Geography
• Climate
• Availability and vulnerability of prey in the area
Both parties’ arguments hold some weight. Research findings support that some wolves eat plants, and some don’t.
The natural diet of the wolf varies and may depend on factors like:
Closing the Plant Based Food Argument
Let’s move on to the next series of arguments.
Because dogs are inefficient at digesting plants, BARF feeders puree fruits and vegetables. Prey Model feeders disagree with this practice. They believe foods that must be predigested before feeding are not natural food items.
This raises the questions:
• If plants are not fully digested – are the vitamins, minerals and enzymes being absorbed?
• If nutrient absorption is subpar, why include these ingredients?
Dogs have a short, simple, and acidic GI tract.
It’s job:
Passing foods with high pathogen loads through the digestive system quickly. Often, this digestive expressway causes plant material to exit looking similar to how it entered.
Prey Model Argument: “Dogs Are Inefficient at Digesting Plant-Based Foods”
Many people question if dogs are efficient at digesting and absorbing nutrients from plants. This leads to the following claims and rebuttals:
Can Dogs Digest Plants?
The original source of the information is unknown. Plus, there are no studies or research to back up the claim. Just the opposite, the starch study above indicates dogs have evolved to be able to digest plant material.
Rather, this is an assumption. It’s based on the differences in a carnivore’s digestive system, not fact.
Pet nutrition blogger and filmmaker, Rodney Habib, has attempted to bust this myth. Not only has he interviewed the world’s top researchers, he’s met with owners of the oldest living pets in the world.
What they ALL had in common had been: diversity in their diets.
And renowned veterinarian and raw feeding supporter, Dr. Karen Becker agrees. Habib relays her response in the following quote from this video:
“If vegetables, let’s say hypothetically, were hurting a dog’s pancreas…Purina would be responsible for death by pancreatitis of 20 billion animals on the planet just from the vegetable content they put in their foods.”
“It makes total sense:
“96% of the world’s population feeds processed food. And we know that a huge category required to put these processed foods together are vegetable/starch components. (Now, I’m not saying those are good and of course, we know what starches can do for cancer…). But dogs would be dying in exponential rates of pancreatitis all over the world if vegetables were destroying dog’s pancreases.”
According to many raw feeders, this is a myth.
BARF Argument: “Fruits and Vegetables DO NOT Harm the Pancreas”
Fruits and vegetables are difficult for a dog’s digestive system to break down. The pancreas has to work hard to produce amylase to aid in the digestion of those foods.
Over time, the pancreas can become overworked, inflamed, or worn out. This can result in illnesses such as diabetes and pancreatitis.
Many Prey Model advocates claim:
Prey Model Argument: “Fruits and Vegetables Are Hard on A Dog’s Pancreas”
And as a dog owner, that’s for you to figure out.
How? Don’t subscribe to one side’s arguments and remain blind to the other. Read, research, and test.
The good news:
We have more research to inform us and it’s changing what we’ve always thought as raw feeders.
Some dogs do better with more plant material in their diets and some don’t.
Each dog handles ingredients in a fresh food diet in a different manner.
For example, in the starch study we discussed earlier:
• Certain dogs resembled the limited starch capabilities of the Wolf
• Others showed the potential for a much greater capacity.
The truth is:
Dogs are individuals, like us.
The “Plant Digestion” Argument Summarized: It Can Depend on YOUR Dog
He’s traveled all over globe interviewing the world’s top experts on diet and nutrition. Rodney has met with 100s of canine and human health experts on a variety of topics.
I knew he’d bring some fascinating research to the table, so we sat down for an informal mind jam.
But first, I want to share how Rodney started his raw journey.
Believe it or not, Rodney began as a Prey Model feeder. He switched to BARF after he started analyzing his dog’s diets. What he found was meat-only diets were deficient in several key nutrients.
Around the same time, he was also treating one of his dogs for cancer. Despite help from the best minds in the raw feeding and natural health communities…
Those darn tumors kept growing.
Once Rodney set out on a quest for answers from the world’s leading researchers, he learned the benefits of plants to fill in the gaps in today’s foods.
Today, Rodney is still an avid raw feeder and provides his dogs a meat-based diet. But now he enlists the help of plant material and other fresh foods as supplementation.
Update: Rodney has not only halted but reversed the cancer in his dog. He mentions it here.
The moral of the story:
We’re always learning new things about nutrition. Never stop testing, analyzing, experimenting and learning with your dog’s diet.
Let’s review the research Rodney shared. It might help guide you on the matter of fruits and vegetables in your dog’s diet.
Rodney is a pet nutrition blogger.
An Interview with Rodney Habib
Dogs that ate green leafy vegetables had reduced the risk of developing bladder cancer by 90%. And dogs that consumed yellow or orange colored veggies reduced their risk by 70%.
The results were shocking.
In 2005, Purdue University conducted a study using fresh vegetables in canine diets. The goal was to see how they affected incidences of bladder cancer in dogs.
Using Scottish terriers, one group received only dry kibble. The other group received dry kibble plus different vegetables 3 times per week.
The Purdue Study
This creates nutritionally weakened food sources.
And it’s hard to avoid; 99% of farm animals in the US are raised on factory farms.
What’s more, the soil is depleted too.
Modern, intense agricultural methods have stripped increasing amounts of nutrients from the soil.
Crops grown decades ago (and the animals that ate them) were much richer in vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients than the varieties most of us get today.
A 2004 study showed “reliable declines in protein, calcium, phosphorus, iron, riboflavin and vitamin C over the past half century.”
Luckily, healthier meat and produce options exist today. Like grass-fed, free-range, organic, and non-GMO.
But the truth is:
The best meat and produce options today don’t compare to their counterparts 50 years ago. And the same foods can be like night in day in nutrient content. For example, the nutrition in a chicken breast can vary from state, region, and even country.
While there’s no such thing as a perfect diet, you must understand the limitations in today’s foods and adjust for it.
• Live in dark, tiny and unsanitary conditions where diseases spread rapidly
• Are loaded with chemicals, drugs, antibiotics, and hormones
• Don’t receive enough sunlight. They lack vitamin D which helps with immunity and other biological processes
• Eat unnatural foods
• Have an imbalance of omega 6 and 3 fatty acids contributing to inflammation in the body
Conventionally raised animal proteins are coming up short today. CAFO and factory farmed animals:
Poor Farming Practices & Soil Depletion
Don’t panic, the point is:
Dogs are carnivores and should eat a meat-based diet. But plant foods are helping raw feeders to fill in the gaps in their raw diets today.
The bottom line:
Nutritional analysis can show where any homemade raw diet is falling short. Though, it seems as if more and more dog owners and experts are pointing out greater deficiencies in meat-only diets.
In this article, Brown cites beef and bone-in chicken recipes with and without vegetables. In the chart included, you can see the nutritional deficiencies.
“Vegetables provide essential nutrients, including fiber, minerals, and vitamins. Without plant matter providing those nutrients, an all-meat diet would need supplements.
According to Steve Brown, renowned dog nutrition expert:
A healthy diet improves the quality of the gut bacteria and supports a healthy microbiome.
We call this “ecosystem” of bacteria the microbiome and researchers are learning it has a lot to do with health, immunity and longevity.
Research has determined:
Humans and animals living the longest today have double the gut bacteria in their bodies.
Some forms of gut bacteria can even help prevent disease. Researchers triggered obesity in lab rats by eradicating four species of gut bacteria. What’s more, those with health issues like obesity and cancer lack a diversified microbiome.
Here’s something else to consider:
Research is uncovering that the microbiome drives genetic expression. This means it can turn genes on or off depending on which microbes are present.
And we know dogs are the animals most prone to genetic disorders. Thanks to excessive inbreeding.
Research also suggests the microbiome may be one of the preeminent factors determining longevity.
The big takeaway:
Diet is key.
It’s about more than getting specific nutrients from food…
• Digestion
• Protect the body from harmful bacteria
• Influence immune response
• And do tons of other amazing things.
Inside an animal’s intestinal tract lives trillions of diverse microorganisms. They help with:
The MicroBiome:
Again, this doesn’t mean we should avoid meat. Dogs are facultative carnivores and are built to consume a meat-based diet. But plant material can increase the microbiome diversity of our pets. And according to research, this could prevent or reduce the likelihood of:
• Genetic disorders
• Lead to stronger immunity
• And a longer life.
Foods that impair the microbiome are:
• Processed foods
• Meats from animals raised in confined animal feeding operations (CAFOs)
• Foods high in sugar
• GMO foods
The point:
Your dog’s diet can make or break their microbiome.
Foods that help the microbiome flourish are:
• Raw foods
• Fermented foods
• Foods high in fiber
• Fruits
• Vegetables
• Nuts and seeds
Did you know specific microbes specialize in fermenting soluble fiber from fruits and vegetables? The byproducts from this fermentation activity help nourish the cells lining the colon. And they can help prevent inflammatory disorders as well.
This leads us back to fruits and vegetables.
• It’s implicated in many diseases like cancer.
• Stimulating the mTOR pathway promotes growth– including cancer cell growth – rather than regeneration.
• mTOR activation inhibits cellular and mitochondrial autophagy.
MTOR is one of the most important nutrient-signaling pathways in the body of mammals. This is what you need to know:
Let’s break this down:
• Mammalian – happens in the body of mammals
• TOR – it’s a “nutrient-sensitive, central controller of cell growth and aging.”
Enter mTOR.
It stands for the mammalian target of rapamycin.
From a biological perspective, the role of any animal is perpetuating their genes.
It may seem grim, but cell replication, reproduction and death are what we’re designed to do. We exist to ensure our species lives on in the next generation.
To achieve longevity then:
We must understand these cellular processes and look to slow down cell manipulation.
mTOR
• Fasting
• Exercise
• Diet
Experts recommend a ketogenic diet – high fat, moderate protein and low carb. This helps to avoid activating mTOR.
Here’s why:
Eating more protein than the body requires will stimulate mTOR. This can speed up the aging process and increase the risk for cancer and other diseases. When protein is limited to only what the body needs, mTOr remains inhibited. Obviously, protein needs are animal specific. Dogs will require more protein than people will.
It’s also wise to restrict non-fiber carbs. These are the sugary and starchy heavy foods that quickly convert to sugar in the body.
But fiber-rich fruits and vegetables, along with increasing healthy fats can be beneficial. These foods do not carry negative metabolic effects.
The main takeaway:
Macronutrient (protein, carbs, fat) manipulation can help activate or inhibit mTor.
For a healthy dog, this might not be a much of a concern. But dogs with cancer and other health concerns may benefit from macronutrient manipulation. This often includes adjusting the plant content of their diets.
How do we boost autophagy?
“Greater autophagy taking place in tissue should mean fewer damaged and disarrayed cells at any given moment in time, which in turn should translate to a longer-lasting organism.”
Fightaging.org says:
It means “self-eating.” And it refers to the process you or your dog’s body uses to clean and destroy:
• Debris
• Toxins
• Damaged cells and mitochondria
Boosting autophagy:
• Decreases inflammation
• Slows down the aging process
• Optimizes biological functions
What’s autophagy?
1. Provide a greater variety of nutrients
2. Fill the gaps in today’s foods
3. Increase the diversity of the microbiome
4. Help to slow aging
5. Assist in preventing or slowing illness and
disease, especially cancer.
Your dog is a carnivore and should consume a meat-based diet. This article exists only to share the thoughts and opinions on fruits and veggies in a raw diet today.
More and more dog owners are choosing to supplement with plants to:
Don’t stop feeding meat.
Making Sense of Everything
Even without plants, Prey Model diets can be complete, balanced, and nutrient dense. Plus, they’re unarguably authentic.
The problem I notice is that some raw feeders can’t locate or afford enough variety in the diet. They tend to feed:
• 1-2 protein sources
• A narrow or select grouping of muscle meats, edible bone, and organs.
Over time nutritional deficiencies may creep in.
But I do agree:
I used to feed Prey Model, so I have a ton of respect for the approach and the philosophy behind it. What I disagree with though is a strong stance against plant matter.
Why?
No single, strict ancestral diet exists. We have enough data to make a conclusion that wolves scavenge for plant material in the wild. Even if that amount is small.
That’s a tough question to answer.
I support all forms of raw diets.
Do You Recommend a Prey Model (no plants) Diet?
Plenty of people excel at feeding Prey Model. They’re a dedicated bunch that provides an impressive variety of foods for their dogs.
It’s possible to give your dog everything they need with a Prey Model diet. But not all raw feeders succeed at this. Prey Model diets are for the dedicated. It’s for the people who can afford, locate, and get this kind of variety.
Still undecided?
Consider using cold, hard facts to help you make a decision.
Don’t get me wrong:
• Fur, hide, or feathers for fiber
• Eyes, brains, tongue and other random parts
• Just about all organs and glands (more than the typical raw feeder provides)
It’s difficult to replicate this at home. Some of the best examples of a varied Prey Model diet come from those who feed whole prey. Whether it’s purchased or hunted. But hunting and whole prey feeding isn’t for everyone…
Wolves in the wild consume a vast range of nutrients even if they eat the same prey (or protein sources) all the time. They devour 90-95% of a prey animal including:
Remember:
This a microbiome-screening test that provides detailed and accurate information about gut health. It’s doctor ordered so make sure you ask your vet to request one.
uBiome
Available worldwide, it’s an accurate hair test for mineral deficiencies and toxins. With this test you’ll see what minerals are missing in your dog’s diet and can detect levels of harmful heavy metals.
Dr. Dobias HairQ Test
If you’re a Prey Model feeder, test your dog on their normal diet. Then try a BARF diet and test your dog again. The same goes for BARF feeders.
Compare and see which diet produces a healthier animal on paper and in person.
Use data to come to a conclusion, instead of assumptions.
Test Your Dogs Diet with and without Fruits and Vegetables.
Fire up Google and find a company that can analyze your dog’s homemade raw diet.
Or click here, for a list of pet food testing laboratories in and outside the US. I recommend you contact the lab for pricing and shipping instructions.
Analyze your dog’s homemade raw diet often as you can afford. Maybe that’s quarterly, once a year or every couple of years.
With ingredients coming from different sources – your local grocery store, an online retailer, and a local co-op – it may never be exact.
But nutritional analyses could offer some helpful insight into what your dog is eating day in and day out. You might find some areas you’re falling short that are worth supplementing.
And that could make all the difference in a healthy and long-lived dog.
Pet food Analysis
When it comes to fruits and vegetables in raw diet, a winning side may never emerge.
The truth: this stuff is complicated.
But at least you’ve heard both sides of the argument, along with interesting research to consider. With this information, you can come to an unbiased conclusion.
Do what you think is best.
Or better yet, test both approaches and choose the one your dog flourishes on.
One last thing:
Share this with other raw feeders struggling with the same question.
